An in-person curator talk took place on September 30th, 2023, at The ArQuives in Toronto.
My name is Dallas. I am a curator, writer and I also [engage] in archival research. I am at University of Toronto right now completing my Master of Visual Studies [degree]. My research there is situated at the intersection of trans studies and archival studies. That's what my life has been for the past year and what it's going to be for the next year. I'm thrilled to be here and talking with Jordan about the show. Do you want to do an intro as well as?
I will introduce myself for the sake of the listening audience out on the internet. I'm Jordan King. I'm a curator, performer, artist, writer, not always in that order, but somewhere in amongst doing all of those different things. I'm completing my Master of Fine Art [degree] at OCAD University, entering my second year, this show has been the result of a long period of work that began in the spring of this year. I'm excited to have some folks here to see it and share it with. And to be speaking with you [Dallas], of course, I like to introduce our dialogue, as I call us, as co-conspirators.
I think it feels accurate to me.
We are both doing similar work, but in different ways. We have these really wonderful conversations, because we're also not of the same generation. And yet, I just so appreciate your perspective and your interest in history, which is something that we I think both share.
I think we're both… I mean, something I love about this exhibition is that it really shows a sort of complex web of intergenerational trans relationships. There's something that feels [somehow] meta about us working together.
Yes, I agree.
I might start for people who are seeing the show for the first time, maybe you could start by giving a little background about how you started with this research and the theme of looking at trans performers; the duality of their onstage and offstage lives. It’s so resonant. I’d love to hear more about how you arrived at that, and what the research process was like?
Absolutely. I was always an amateur historian, I guess. I remember being really interested in [trans histories], even when I was still a performer myself in Vancouver, a whole lifetime ago. The first time that I ever met somebody who, I [think] would [have] laugh[ed] [at] being called a trans elder. I myself was called a queer elder for the first time this year. I was both honored and offended at the exact same time. [Both laugh] Meeting [someone I considered an elder] was the first time that I had ever [encountered] somebody, and we're talking many, many, many years ago, somebody who was of a generation older than mine. [She shared] so much knowledge with me, [all anecdotally], about what it was like for her coming up and what her generation went through, and the women that were part of her circle at that time, almost all of whom were no longer alive. [From that] I started to develop a real interest in [trans] history. And because as we both know, as folks who've done a lot of work in archival research and studying trans histories, there is not a formally organized history, it's not something that we're taught, it doesn’t… You know, it exists now more so to an extent, because there are more people that are doing this [historical research], but at the time, [that] did not exist. Categorically, it was not information that you could access in any way shape, or form, outside of a very small select number of textbooks [or memoirs]. Simultaneous to that, of course, the Internet was starting to boom and flourish. So some [information] [started to become accessible] online [in these] small ways. I was so curious [to learn more]. I was curious to know about what people's lives had been like, who'd come before me, specifically [in] performance. This was born out of my own path as having been somebody who performed actively throughout my entire transition, and was [already] reflecting on [that]. I've often been really [introspective] about the process of stepping out on stage and being in the spotlight and [receiving] scrutiny from both an audience, from friends, from strangers, from former lovers, future lovers. You know, that [entire] process. When I started to research this, it was partly because I wanted to encourage [reflection] for people who did not come up in this world, the world that's being explored in this exhibition, to think about a time when there was no[t much on the] internet and no social media. So really, you would have found your community and you would have found yourself in some of these spaces and places, which don't really exist in the same way anymore. I mean, of course we still have nightlife. But these [venues] tended to be real community hubs in a lot of ways. And that's something which was commented on by Sam, who's here [in the audience], was that these spaces were where you [could] have found the ability to become yourself. You would not have found it online, you would not have found a community online, because the internet didn't exist yet. I try to encourage people to, I guess, think about that, and understand that history and also to share the research that I've done. [I hope to make] some of the intergenerational dialogue that I've started to [engage in] available [to others] so that it's not just resting with me, that it's something that other people might be interested in and want to access for themselves.
That's incredible. This project started, actually when you were [working] in Montreal, right?
Yeah, this is sort of a continuation of a show that I curated in Montreal in 2020. That [show] was never seen by anyone, it was never open to the public. [At that] period of time COVID restrictions were such that galleries were not able to be [opened]. So I [curated] a version of this show in Montreal [in 2020 which] was much more Montreal-focused. This particular show [at The ArQuives] started to come to life in May of this year [2023]. I was approached by Archive/CounterArchive, a project based out of York University, they were going to partner with The ArQuives with a “Q" where we are now, to do some programming for the 50th anniversary of The ArQuives of a “Q”. I can't [quite] say The ArQueeves or The Ark-Quives, because as we've talked about, [those] do not roll off the tongue in quite the same way as ArQuives with a “Q”. This started in May [2023], the research process, when I was offered a research residency in preparation to then present an [exhibition] this month, which is what has come to pass and the show opened just a couple of weeks ago.
I want to give you a bit of credit and say in that process, I feel like there's a lot of behind the scenes digitization [work] that was happening. That's really interesting to me, because it's one thing [for] these materials [to be held] in The ArQuives, and they aren't necessarily available for members of the public to walk in and view [at any] time. You kind of have to know what you're looking for. If you wanted to, for example, see these images of Brandy, [these] were [photo] negatives [which] you had printed, and you facilitated the digitization of this Mirha-Soleil Ross film, [as well as] went through a few hoops to get some other photographs here in the space.
Yes, this is a great segueway to walk people through each one of the different sets of items that are on display. When you first walk into the space, you turn to [the] right and there's [a] curatorial text on the wall. This is contextualizing the show and the works for people. [D]irectly to the [left] project[ed] onto the wall is a film by Mirha-Soleil Ross called “Journée Internationale De La Transsexualité”, which [is] a film that is in the collection of [Toronto film and video distributor] Vtape. Vtape [distribute]s Mirha Soleil-Ross’s video works, but The ArQuives holds Mirha’s physical archive which she donated when she left Toronto, is my understanding. [Although] you could access [this film] through Vtape, it was a watermarked version, it was not the same kind of quality. [I discovered that a] beta cam master [of the film] was actually here at The ArQuives. I was able to work with Vtape to digitize that beta cam master. It's honestly like seeing this film for the first time. Although I had screened it via Vtape previously, this is such a staggeringly beautiful [way of] [re-discovering] [the film]. [In] an ideal world [the detail] is a bit more impactful when the space is a bit darker, but we're here [doing the curator talk] in the daytime. [It’s] still a nice way to see [the film] and to interact with it.
That was [quite] a process but also something that I was really excited to do because I believe so much in this film and in what Mirha was doing and working on. The fact that it's a fully completed short film that she made in the 1990s… I don't think [most] people, unless [they have] tried to make a film, can appreciate how much would have gone into creating [this film]. [Making an independent film] is such a significant undertaking, and Mirha would have worked hard to make this [project] come to life. I [also] don’t think people have [previously had a chance to] see it in the way that I think it deserves to be seen, personally. [I] look at that [work] as a way that people in the future will be able to [access] it as well. [Considering] that previously, you would not have been able to see [it in this format], or I don't even know if [many] people knew that this version existed at this quality.
[Next are t]he photos here on the wall opposite the entrance, which were [in a collection] recently acquired by The ArQuives. [Or they may have been acquired but] the accession hadn't [been completed until this summer]. [T]his person appears in other fonds in The ArQuives. But [these photos are from] their personal collection, [which] was given to a [Toronto] filmmaker who had interviewed them, [and subsequently donated to The ArQuives]. [M]ore or less, this is the first time [the public] will get to see like these images. [T]hey were scanned by Toronto Image Works, who did [very] high quality scans, and were so wonderful to work with, [the] prints [displayed here] are from those negatives. So this [performer], although they appear in the book “Out North” (“Out North:An Archive of Queer Kinship and Activism in Canada”), for example, and they are interviewed by other folks in the film, they were known to have been a long time performer in Toronto. [T]here [were] some really hilarious articles in this collection that had just come in, that help[ed] to give a sense of what their life was like, and who they were as a person. It's important to distinguish that they are a drag performer. So they're not trans per se, although they had also been profiled by Mirha Soleil-Ross. Mirha, in her short video profile of them [stated] “trans performer”, so Mirha saw in them something that was to her mind, trans in the way that she identified them. But they were… [Brandy] used he/him pronouns, [Brandy was] a drag performer. [T]here is video footage of them in one of the short films that Dallas [plan to] screen and talk about, which is [Brandy] speaking about their life and talking about having been a performer, it's quite magical and special. [These photos] were brought to life as a result of this exhibition and will be able to be seen by other people now that these negatives have been digitized [and these] prints have been made. [I]n the photos behind on this wall to the left when you walk into the space are the [are] that Dallas was referring to, which had been in the collection for 40 years. But there was a sort of… [S]tatute on them that they were not to be exhibited, or reprinted at all. [R]esearchers could access them, but they weren't meant to be shared. I was curious about why, because they're beautiful photos that have been clearly developed and matted and are essentially exhibition ready. I traveled to Montreal to meet with the photographer to try to understand what what [his] intention was with both creating the photos, because [they are a] really amazing photo essay, there's quite a significant number of photos and slides from the series, but also understand, what's the deal with not allowing them to be shown. [The photographer, Raphael Bendahan] explained that he didn't feel the quality was good enough for them to be exhibited. [He shared t]hat the reason he had done this photo series. [They] came out of a year and a half long period that he was getting to know these performers, that they were shot backstage at a Toronto after-hours club called The Manatee, which was just around the corner from [The ArQuives current location, in 1973/1974]. He [had] really put a lot of time and care and energy into creating these images. [At that point he was just starting out as] a photographer. I guess he has been asked many times over the years to do something with the[se photos] by people, and nothing would ever come to fruition. So at a certain point, he was tired of [being] asked, so he just said, “Don't send people my way. It's a full stop: No. I don't want people to exhibit them, to [re]print them, to include them in a book, nothing. Researchers can access them. But that's it.” He did say [to me], however, “Well, you've clearly done your homework.” I think he understood what it was I was trying to do and what my [intention] was with this show, so [his answer to my request to include them in the exhibition] wasn't a “No” per se, but it wasn't a yes at that point that I met with him. [H]e also clarified that the [photos] were printed originally for a documentary short film that he had made. The contrast [had been] bumped up on them so that the 16 millimetre camera could capture the photograph. [It seemed like] his interest [at the time had been] more in the documentary than taking the photos. [H]e planned to use the 16 millimetre camera to [slowly] pan over these photos. [He] also shared that short film with me which, fingers crossed, is on VHS here in The ArQuives [and that] we may be able to show [it] during our [online curator] talk but I'm not going to make promises yet. It's not a great quality transfer on VHS but I hopefully people can [still watch it]. Either way, he wasn't really connected to the photos per se, but he understands why people are interested in them. [A]fter many, many, many weeks of communication, he acquiesced and said, “OK fine show two of the photos”. [Based on] that concession two [photos] are included from his photo essay. They're among the items I'm most proud of having been able to include, along with Mirha’s film, just because I think they're so [historically significant] and quite stunning. [There are] not details known about the individuals with the exception of the person in the photo on the left, which it is noted on the back of the photo that she [later] “moved to Austria and had a sex change”, [which is] the [exact] terminology that was used. [These photos are], I think, really spectacular in their composition.
[T]hen the last piece in this little walkabout [tour] I’m doing is [an] excerpt from [a] film “DIVAS: Love Me Forever”. [T]his is a documentary film completed in Toronto in the late 1990s [which] profiles a group of Black drag performers. [I]t’s a feature length documentary, only twenty minutes of it is shown here to give folks a sense of this time period, right before the [proliferation of the] internet [and] social media. [T]his would have been a group that would have been very interconnected with one another. [T]here’s footage of them all performing together. [T]hat [concludes the quick tour of the exhibition].
I wanted to ask a question about this film [“DIVAS’}, and Mirha’s film. The confessional clips with the performers are really significant here. [They give the] drag performers a voice and a sort of autonomy [in] telling their own story. But it is also complicated working with materials like this [created] by cis directors who weren't necessarily a part of the drag scene or participants in that community. I think it's so interesting to see [these films] stream in the same place or [be] on view in the same [space] as Mirha’s film, which document[s] an event for transsexual woman at Cafe Cleopatra in Montreal. [I]n the past, maybe still today, but more so in the past [it was] a safe haven or a community space for trans women. What was your experience working and contrasting [these] materials?
I love that you notice [that choice], and that we [can] talk about it, because I think the the films are quite different in how the performers are handled. I've spent a ton of time with each of these films, in preparation for this [talk], and even in part, you know, [prior to] this exhibition. You see, quite often in the Anton Wagner film these perform[ances are] for [gay male or cisgender] audiences. [E]ven this clip that [happened] to come up [onscreen] just now, it's a [corporate] sponsored event of some kind in a [highly visible] outdoor space. [This is a very] public kind of a performance that these performers are putting on. [T]here’s not the same kind of intimacy and also their responses, the interview subjects, viscerally have a sort of sheepish-ness at times being interviewed by Anton Wagner. [I]t’s not to totally critique his film, but I think it is also ripe for critique. This is obviously somebody who was, you know, going in specifically to create a film and maybe had a relationship with these subjects [but] maybe didn't, you know, it's hard to say [and] it would be speculation. But when you watch Mirha’s film, you get a totally different sense. I mean, first of all, this is an event that was a community event, it was at a club that is, of course, open to the public, but it's also an event that is for the community and everyone is performing for one another. There [an] intimacy there and and the way that women are speaking [to Mirha], to me, [the intimacy is] palpable, [at least] that's my perception when I'm watching these two films. People who have come to see the exhibition have commented, “Oh, I didn't even know that trans women would get up on stage and lip sync like drag performers do”, that’s not something that some people are necessarily familiar with as a tradition of trans identity. But, I mean, [Mirha’s film] an example. And, of course, now we know, thanks to… I mean, I'll say it, RuPaul’s Drag Race, [which is now a] cultural touchstone, people understand that of course, trans women can be drag performers, [and] that that is maybe a term that some [trans] people might be comfortable with, and some [trans] people might not be comfortable with. But what I love is that this [film], again, shows [that] even in the 1990s, that this was a tradition that had existed even farther back than that, and was a part of that culture. [The films] contrast each other, [they] complement each other. [It] would take spending a fair bit of time with each one and really watching them [closely] to start to [catch] some of the details. But hopefully, that encourages people to look for those.
What you said about Mihra’s film and community is so interesting, especially because in both of the films, I think the people who are like speaking are aware that… Even in Mirha's film, it seems [as though] people are aware that they're talking to a cis audience. But there is a sort of an, in my opinion, a comfortability with that. Mirha was so much a part of the scene that it [would have been] hard to misrepresent something when [she] knew the history and [she likely knew what was] happening there every weekend.
[T]here’s so much that goes into editing, for folks who might put something on TV and [think] “Oh, I watched this thing on TV, or I watch this [show] on the internet" editing is such an art form. [W]hat went in to both of these films, what was included, and excluded is noteworthy right? There’s really conscious thought that the filmmakers would have put into each one of these [works]. [We now] see these finished products that we, many years later, [get to] scrutinize. That [editing process] is a [big] part of [these films].
It's also significant, I think, to include [Anton Wagner’s] film in this conversation, because when [you spoke previously about] looking at documentation of trans histories, there's actually an abundance of documentation of trans histories. It's just [often] from a pathologizing, cisgender perspective. [W]hen we do our own archival work, it's about trying to find something that can counter that perspective. [We look for even] a glimpse of autonomy within that perspective.
People have to just try to imagine that there was a point in time when documentary film was one of the only ways that you would have seen glimpses of [others] yourself, or maybe of a world that you were really interested in, or that you wondered where it might have existed. Documentary film was kind of an access point. Again, I'm talking pre internet days.
I wanted to return to what you said about RuPaul's Drag Race, and about trans drag performance being something that maybe only just in the past 10 years has really entered the mainstream. I was wondering if you could speak to… We talked about this a little bit earlier. But some of like the forces [at] work, I guess, and sentiments that have moved, or pushed trans performers, out of drag communities in the past. You mentioned this [Raphael Bendahan] photograph which notes [about the performer] on the back “Moved to Austria, had a sex change."
There was historically [a] sense that if you were a [drag] performer who transitioned that you were expected to leave the world of performance. [That] if you [were] going to actually, and I'm speaking very broadly here, but I just want to give people a sense that this was a dialogue that existed, that if you were going to take that that step to medically transition or to have any kind of surgical augmentation, then you couldn't stay in the drag world any longer. [O]f course, there [were] exceptions, right? We've [talked about] RuPaul’s Drag Race. [E]ven some of the more recent people who've participated [on the show], they've spoken about some of the places that serve[d] as exceptions, like the Baton Show Lounge in Chicago is [one] example where many performers continue[d] to perform after having medically transition[ed], but they [was a] sort of awkwardness around it is the best way that I could describe it. It wasn't necessarily common for you know, if someone was going to medically transition to stay in the drag world. [A] perfect example of that, which hopefully folks who participate in the Zoom talk [will] get to see. The link will be shared [in advance of that] to another one of Anton Wagner's films. There's an archival interview with someone who talks about a drag troupe in Canada called “The Great Imposters” that will was active in the 1970s. [W]hen they first started out, they had glossy [group] photos taken to promote the show. One of the performers transitioned, and they continued to use the photo, but they erased the performer from the photo. The [interview subject] describes this having happened, and then how subsequently one of the other performers [in the group] transition, but they couldn't retake the photo or if they had taken two people out of the photo, then it would have looked strange. One person, they could erase, two they couldn't. [I]t’s it is like, sort of comical, but also at the same time, it's a really great example for people to see that that was what happened. I've talked to many people who've shared anecdotally that that was the expectation: if you were going to medically transition, then why would you stay in the drag world? Why would you stay in the queer world? [Y]ou were expected to go and become [a cis]-person now. It just was this, you know, this sort of difficult thing. Of course, there [were] exceptions [to this].… I don't think that there's a clear way to [demonstrate] just how complicated it was for performers, who were going to continue performing, and who are going to publicly identify as trans or who were going to have surgeries or not have surgeries, it became a very difficult decision.
A lot [was] tied up [into] being forced to make that decision. [Which] also ties back to the term female impersonator, which is used throughout this film (“DIVAS”) made in the 90s. [T]hat [was] the term [still] being used. [T]hat would have been the term that Brandy [the person in these photographs] was using also, which I guess gets to the core of this exhibition: this idea of impersonating femaleness as a performance or [for] a show actually gave a lot of space to people who were not just doing it as a show, [but] were doing it [as an act of] a gender expression.
Absolutely. I posit this in the curatorial text, one of the themes of research that I keep coming back to, is this idea of stage performance as an act of self actualization. It’s what might have afforded some of the individuals the opportunity to present themselves on stage to an audience, to connect with the world that might have allowed them and enabled and help[ed] them to then go through the processes that they wanted to go through and needed to go through and might not have otherwise [had] access [to] had they not necessarily connected with the community in that way. [At least] that’s how I see it…. But it's a theory that I'm [still] trying to explore. It's not necessarily complete yet.